Envision AESC to release NCM 811 battery cells next year
Now that Nissan’s battery business was finally sold to Envision, we can expect faster development of AESC battery cells under Chinese ownership.
The first obvious step is to introduce NCM 811 battery cells next year.
Envision AESC Gen4 (NCM 523) vs Gen5 (NCM 811) battery cells
The new Gen5 (NCM 811) battery cell’s dimensions and tabs disposition are quite different from the old generation, this shows that they aren’t meant to be a direct replacement. The new more energy dense cell require a different pack arrangement and the introduction of a good liquid-cooling TMS (Thermal Management System). The new Gen5 cell also look more appropriate for a “skateboard” battery pack layout.
The “skateboard” battery pack layout that was originally introduced by Tesla is perfect for electric cars designed from the ground up to be electric and will probably become standard in the coming years. The new MEB platform from Volkswagen is a good example of this trend. The previous MQB platform – that was a compromise to allow ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) and electric powertrains – looks so primitive when compared to the KISS principle of the MEB.
Battery costs roadmap by Volkswagen
Curiously, even before adopting the new Gen5 cells and “skateboard” battery layout, AESC managed to increase the energy density of the Nissan LEAF battery by 50 % in the 62 kWh model, just by optimizing the pack with the same Gen4 cells, which shows that the battery pack is much more than just the cells.
Nissan LEAF battery pack evolution by Envision AESC
I’m curious to know which electric car from the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance will be the first to adopt the new NCM 811 battery cells and “skateboard” layout. Maybe a compact SUV? We already know that the Renault ZOE and the Nissan LEAF will share the same platform in the future, but that’s still one or two years away.
What do you think? Which electric car from the Alliance do you expect to be the first to adopt these new NCM 811 battery cells?
Thanks Rodrigo Melo for the heads up.
More info:
You are asking whether Nissan or Renault will first adopt the NCM 811 battery cells which requires a good liquid cooling while neither Nissan Leaf, Nissan e-NV200 nor Renault Zoe has one? All of them have air cooling and Nissan Leafs have actually nothing?
And none of them has a clean “skateboard” design, all of them have these “humps” under the seats which make any type of cooling a lot more difficult?
I think you have answered your own question.
What about the ” global shortages of nickel, copper and other electric-vehicle battery minerals”?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lithium-electric-tesla-exclusive/exclusive-tesla-expects-global-shortage-of-electric-vehicle-battery-minerals-sources-idUSKCN1S81QS
Or will China produce enough material for their “own” companies?
(For international use, and not for the homeland?)
e-NV200 has liquid cooling, and a flat battery pack.
e-NV200 Air Cooling. I don’t see any cooling ports.
https://insideevs.com/news/322347/heres-why-nissan-employs-active-air-cooling-in-e-nv200-battery-pack/
They are there:
https://i2.wp.com/evobsession.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/nv200-cooling.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1
Their not improving the fundamental li-ion cell, geometry fiddling doesn’t count.
It’s been a long time since any real improvement has been achieved. Increasing heat issues. The two dimensional interface between electrodes and current carriers and electrolyte needs addressing. It’s been 30 years only the first decade saw decent improvement.
If there hasn’t been significant improvements why all roadmap charts show increasing performance in several years to come?
Energy density has improved. Power density has improved. Safety has improved. Longevity has improved. True, lately energy density has not increased as fast as it did in the 90’s, but it is improving. Nevertheless, batteries are good enough. I expect that cost reduction has been the main focus as electric cars move into mainstream.
The battery cells are only air cooled.
But the air (inside the pack) is cooled by a heat exchanger.
A typical low cost, low effort, low effect solution.
Certainly, even much better, than the Leaf pack…
The env200 have a perfectly good cooling solution. Saying that’s low effect is completely wrong.
Like other EVs, a bigger problem is in the winter, when it does not reach much above 30 kW charging.
I have a feeling that some people shit on Nissan’s solution, without considering the practical use cases.
Skateboard design is stupid, because rear passengers have legs.
H batteries are much better.
No design is perfect, but the skateboard layout is much better for weight distribution and heat dissipation.
The Nissan IMx can perfectly use an skateboard platform (is supposed to be launched in about two years) and this NCM 811 battery from AESC.
Pedro, have you seen this article on taking a road trip with the new Leaf Plus?
https://insideevs.com/reviews/348996/nissan-leaf-e-pus-review-drive/
It appears that the new configuration that you’ve mentioned before (88s3p instead of 96s2p ?) has reduced the Leaf’s thermal build up on highway driving (70mph), up into the mountains driving, and on charging at 50KW chargers. Yes, it’s a lower C rate, but this makes the car a much better road tripper.
This would mean that the 62KWH Leaf should be much more effective at road trips, at least in non-hot climates. If it’s as this article notes, that it can do much longer driving segments, without as much temperature build up, and need fewer DCFC sessions, and those DCFC sessions will be able to run at a higher KW.
When I’m up for my next EV in a few years, I’ll probably compare the Leaf Plus to the Model Y, and see what the pricing difference is, and what the charging infrastructure situation is.
Hi Marcel. Yes, I did read it.
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Since the 40 kWh and 62 kWh battery packs use exactly the same Gen4 cells, it’s normal to expect the 62 kWh pack to be more efficient in both charging and discharging, due to lower C-rate.
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If you are using 20 kW from the 40 kWh battery pack it represents a 1/2 C-rate discharge, while in the 62 kWh pack it represents only 1/3 C-rate. Lower C-rate means a more efficient charge/discharge, thus less heating/degradation.
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I still wish that Nissan ditched CHAdeMO already in Europe and North America like Kia recently did.
Hummm… “una tasa de C más baja significa una carga / descarga más eficiente, por lo tanto, menos calentamiento / degradación” pero sólo cuando se tienen en cuenta los mismos recorridos, los mismos km. Pero como el paquete de 62 kWh permite hacer 100 km más, si se apura la autonomía, el calentamiento final es superior, tanto en carga como en descarga.
Es el mismo problema que tienen las 18650 o las 21700 de gran capacidad. Si tenemos dos 18650, una de 1.500 mAh y otra de 3.000 mAh con similar resistencia interna, al final de una carga/descarga completa a los mismos Amperios, la de 3.000 mAh sufrirá un calentamiento de casi el doble de ºC que la de 1.500 mAh, a pesar que las C de carga/descarga de la de 1.500 mAh sean la mitad que la de 3.000 mAh.
Yeah I wished they used CCS too. It can’t be that hard to put Chademo on Japanese made cars and ccs on the rest?
The Leaf Plus will probably still be in the running for my next EV in 3 years, but it’ll depend on the availability of chademo chargers, the relative prices against the Niro and the Model Y, and maybe availability. I’m not yet sure about the upcoming ID Crozz – not enough to go on yet.
Slight topic change:
https://thinkprogress.org/gas-cars-electric-vehicles-battery-price-99d1f99ab987/
I think we have to wait and see. In some European countries the governments talk about prohibiting gas and diesel car sales by 2040, 2035, 2030 or even 2025, that sounds a bit strange looking at the adoption graph that shows 50% EV sales by 2030 for Europe. If gas and diesel cars are prohibited, who is buying the remaining 50% that are not EVs in Europe in 2030?
If gas and diesel car sales are prohibited in most of Europe by 2030 the adoption rate should be close to 90%. If we assume that the last countries prohibit gas and diesel car by 2040 the adoption rate should reach 100% by 2040 and not the 76-77% from the graph.
– Isn’t Leaf Plus liquid cooled? (further explaining its better efficiency)
– Doesn’t liquid make it just as easy to cool an H or skateboard batt?
– Isn’t one of the advantages of 811 less rare/costly cobalt?
– In my area, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a chademo charger that doesn’t also have a CCS plug, so if that’s the new trend (& they upgrade the older ones too) then the car’s socket won’t matter.
I think the Leaf e-Plus still is has no liquid cooling, but I am not sure.
I think the skateboard design simply provides more space, both for the battery and for the occupants.
Yes, I think they use less cobalt and have better energy density.
That is also correct for my area, I have also never seen a CHAdeMO charger that does not also have a CCS plug. I have however seen CCS chargers without CHAdeMO plugs. One simple example is Ionity, they only provide CCS chargers, but I have also seen 50 kW DC chargers that only have CCS and Type-2.
Even Tesla is forced to add CCS to it’s European chargers. So if you are not a Tesla fan like me then CCS is the only way to go to make sure you can always find a charger.
In fact Tesla was not forced to switch to CCS in EU, the legislation here only say that when you are building a public charging station in EU you have to install at least one CCS plug for DCFC or Type2 cable/socket for AC charging. So there is still (unfortunatelly) no regulation which will force all manufacturers to use CCS in their cars.
So migrating to CCS in EU was for Tesla just an inteligent strategic move.
Leaf today has CHAdeMO + Type 2 connectors.
I think it wouldn’t be impossible (for Nissan), to change the Type2 to CCS, and it would be an extremely usable car…
(Just like Tesla makes the older models CCS compatible right now…)
I agree that link I sent seems overly conservative. I believe in 2017 BNEF predicted EV-ICE cost equality in 2026, then in 2018 they said “2024” & now they say “2022”. If that trend continued (dropping 2 years every year) in 2020 they’d say 2020!
Looks like Leaf Plus liquid-cooling was just a rumor & it’s only cooled with A/C air.
I meant I haven’t seen a non-Supercharger DC charger without CCS. If those are common, then ya, definitely better for your car to have that plug, which reminds me I think QuickChargePower Fiat 500e kits should offer that too.
Never heard of CCS for Tesla! If that’s NOT just an adapter-cable, maybe someone SHOULD make those available, including CCS-to-CHAdeMO & vice-versa, so no car’s socket is ever an issue!
Tesla is upgrading their SuperChargers in Europe to CCS since the Model 3 has CCS and recently Tesla made an adapter from CCS to Tesla available.
https://electrek.co/2019/05/07/tesla-ccs-adapter-model-s-x-retrofits/
CSS to CHAdeMO is not that easy and would probably be rather expensive. In Europe the CCS to Tesla adapter makes most sense.
Forget that Nissan would leave CHAdeMO anytime soon. CHAdeMO organization was founded by Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi. CHAdeMO is commercial organization and you need to pay significant amount of money for using this standard in your cars or DSFCs. Migrating from CHAdeMO to CCS will be a major defeat for Nissan, because it will also mean the end of CHAdeMO organisation. So I suppose that we are forced to suffer with two DCFC standards as long as the EU does not get the balls and forces all car producers to use CCS or they do not get the homologation in EU.
“The previous MQB platform – that was a compromise to allow ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) and electric powertrains – looks so primitive when compared to the KISS principle of the MEB.”
I would not call a battery layout like MQB primitive, rather call it complex. This is used to make a normal height car, that still has decent backseat height for adults. Remember that Peugeot E-208E, DS 3 Croosback and Opel E-Corsa will have a battery layout like MQB.
With a full floor battery (high floor) that car type becomes either a CUV / SUV style (e.g. Kia E-Niro) or you have terrible low backseat, where you sit with yours knees in your face (Tesla S and 3). A solution to this will be Porsche Taycan, which has a full floor battery, except for 2 foot wells at the backseat.
search lto batteries ,i have one single cell that i am testing at 100% charge rate,so far this new lithium battery type is amazing,fast charging at 10 x output capacity rating and very little heat ,and discharging at 15 x capacity rating and again no heat buildup.
for a cheap $15 2.5 amp 2.4 volt cell it has also tested at 4.4 amps from the rated 2.8 volts cutout charging volts to 1.6 volts discharge stopping volts.
it takes 12 miniutes to fully 100% charge this cell from 1.6 volts to 2.8 volts .
I however have not tested for the life expentancy that age and vibrations the battery will be subject over time.
Time will tell with this new type of lithium battery as a lot of lithium batteries die of old age at around 5 years .
I will be cycling this cell until it dies -which could be a long time as specs claim 20000 charge cycles.
I am testing this cell very hard ,far harder than it would if it was in a ev car as they normanly keep the state of charge around 30 to 70% for long life of battery bank.
Lto batteries google shearch them
ps i also have a prius battery that i have pulled apart to make up a 24 volt 40 amp battery for my disability scooter ,prius 2010 use nickel metal hydride cells and are warranted for 150000 km ,so i shoild never need to replace them as i only need to charge them once a week.No more sla batteries for me ,that are stuffed after only 500 charges or5 years age…ya
the Nissan Ariya is an obvious candidate for the Gen5 battery cell. I wonder if there are any open studies comparing these different chemistries and layouts
And the Ariya will have a thermal management system
Nissan Ariya will get CATL battery cells.